PMI is an organization of people. People created the PMBoK. Usually, your posts are very insightful, but this post is slightly confusing. For example you refer to the “PMBOK” as a person. “PMBOK and others will asert they represent the core essence of project management processes.” Glen we can all agree that to produce High Quality successful Projects we need competent people. We can also agree that the masses require a starting point to convey or converse about project management. While unethical people may lie about their requirements, to “Ethically” hold a PMP is an achievement beyond simply passing a multiple choice test.

http://pmstudent.com/who-values-the-pmp/
I would like to re-quote you Glen B. Alleman
“You may be stretching a bit. For the current PMP application:
each project requires a contact for verification. The 4,500 hours ARE documented and are verified.
The education hours must be documented for selected (only) providers.
While not a PMP, I manage PMP’s. The concepts established in the PMP are used daily in our practice. Being a hiring manager it is highly unlikely the HR folks specified the PMP. Rather the hiring manager woudl like to have some way of screening applicants, beyonnd the resume.
The PMP is may be an entry level credential. In the same way a BA/BS degree is for engineers. But it is a necessary starting point.”

I strongly feel that you should engage the PMI community and start to work on the difficult process of creating a Certified Board to evaluate the competency of “Senior Project Managers”.

Hi All,
Not too get too far afield from the thread topic, but Bill raised a point that we debate from time to time, and always seem to generate lively discourse.

I just received the latest copy of the PMBOK Guide, 4th Edition and looking at the top of page 4, I see that what PMI advocates is still "generally recognized good practices" used on "most projects most of the time".

Now, I can fully understand and appreciate why this is done, but if we want to raise the professional image of what we do, is "good practices" sufficient?

Given the recent stories about Chesley Sullenberger, the pilot who crash landed the US Airway's flight into the Hudson, got me to thinking about what it takes to be a true professional in one's field.

So cmparing the new PMBOK to commercial aircraft piloting (or to medicine), would you accept merely "good" practices from your? Or cardiologist? Why can't we or why shouldn't we be demanding BEST practices?

Dwell on that, colleagues, as you study your "professional ethics" in preparation for your PMP Exams.....

BR,
Dr. PDG, Jakarta

Hi Glenn,
After about 15 years with PMI (I was a founder of 3 chapters (Indonesia, Thailand and Singapore)and held the post of "Regional Director of Advocacy" for Region 10 for 2-3 years) and PMP (#740), I had it with them, left the organization and dropped my PMP. As a life-long project manager, the organization no longer reflects my beliefs or values as a senior practitioner and educator.

PMI does NOT want active leadership, unless they toe the PMI line. The last thing they want are "advocates", speaking out for a specific region or group of "member/owners".

Like you, I too am a member of INCOSE, but I think the future of project management lies with Systems Dynamics www.systemdynamics.org.

BTW- In re: Nam. Class of "68 - "69. I was with the 20th Engineer Brigade, assigned to the 52nd Signal Bn. constructing communications sites throughout the Mekong Delta. (Vihn Long, Can Tho Sadec, Soc Trang) I get back to Vietnam about once or twice a year. Usually Saigon (HCM) or Hanoi.

BR,
Dr. PDG

Paul,
The centralization of PMI has caused great grief here in A&D. The A&D SIG is being insourced through the Virtula Communities. We have an activei community in Colorado, but the nationalization process has started. I'm the Co-Director of Region 6, but will likley drop my position nexy term.
The concept of a Senior PM is right on. IEEE has similar desiginations as does INCOSE. They are pratice based.
I've switched to the specialist certs, started with Risk Management. Some on our staff have the Program Management cert, which is difficult in all aspects - experience, testing, and references. Maybe a Senior will follow that path.

Hi Josh,
In the 15 or so years I was an active member of PMI, I cannot count the number of times I had similiar conversations with the BOD and even Greg himself on many occasions, and as I am sure you will find out sooner or later, they will patronize you and tell you how valuable your input is, and all the while, hoping like hell that you will just go away and let them make more money.

I'm really sorry to say this, but PMI, since adopting policy governance back in 1998, has gone from being a credible professional society, controlled and directed by the member/owners into being nothing more than a marketing organization- the "Amway" or "Mary Kay Cosmetics" of project management. From my perspective, the primary concern of the HQ staff is job security and lots of global travel.

BR,
Dr. PDG

Hi Vaha,
My advice? Stick with your Masters in PM and forego the PMP..... Like the stock market, when everyone else is jumping in, that's the time to get out......

If you want to "follow the crowd" then get your PMP, but if you want to get ahead of the crowd, look at what asapm www.asapm.org or IPMA or AIPM or AACE and their C3PM http://www.aacei.org/certification/C3PM/welcome... offers in the way of competency based credentials.

BR,
Dr. PDG, heading to bed in Jakarta

Bill and Paul, "vehemently opposed" was my impression, my apologies as this was evidently an incorrect one. I think we agree on more things than we differ. I recently spoke with PMI representatives, and my feedback to them on the PMP is that it is oversold, and becoming undervalued because of it. I also urged them to develop a "Senior PM" cert of some sort, competency based. The PMP has value and has its place, but people need to understand like Bill said, "you've climbed Blue Hill south of Boston, not Everest or Denali"

Josh --

Like Paul, I am not opposed to the PMP, vehemently or otherwise. Hell, I probably did as much as anyone to get the program going back in the early to mid-1990s.

And like Paul, what I am opposed to is the hype. Quite simply, the PMP was intended as a test for project STAFF, not project managers. It was intended to verify that you had a basic understanding of the terms and concepts of project management so that the project manager could talk to you without having to explain everything.

The experience requirements are just one example of the hype. If PMI wants you to have experience as a project manager, why don't they say so? Why circumlocute and say experience "leading and directing." I can write code on a software project or lay bricks on a construction project and meet that test.

And if the test itself is any good, why is the first time pass rate so much higher for native English speakers than for non-native speakers (over 90% vs. roughly 60%)? You took the exam. You know what the questions are like. They are testing your English as much as they are testing your project management knowledge.

Are PMPs more or less capable than non-PMPs? It depends. There is no correlation because the certification does not verify one's ability to manage a project.

As you point out, the exam tests your knowledge of the PMBOK Guide ... to some extent. There are some gross (although relatively minor) discrepancies between the two, and there is a ton of stuff on the exam that is not in the PMBOK Guide. Professional responsibility is the most obvious example.

Finally, the PMBOK Guide itself no longer represents generally accepted practices. The loss of the facilitating processes was a major error, the addition of requirements in the latest edition shows that the editors don't know the difference between project management oriented processes and product oriented processes, and the project risk management chapter is applicable only to large projects supported by risk management specialists. I could go on ...

So as I said in my original post ... be proud of your accomplishment. You worked for something, you achieved it, you deserve a pat on the back. But you've climbed Blue Hill south of Boston, not Everest or Denali.

Duncan

Hi,I've been following the value of PMP discussions on this web page and others for a while now. There's a huge confusion of what PMI, and their certifications are. Okay, I'll get clean first. I don't have a PMP and can't get one - don't have the 4,500 hours (I actually thought it was less, but too lazy right now to doublecheck). I work as an electrical engineer and started doing a masters in PM.

PMI reminds me of the institute of engineers Australia (I think they call themsleves differently these days). An exclusive club that gives out all sort of certificates. As a student I signed up and was paying $60 a year. I thought it was important to be a memeber of a special society (must be the equivalent feeling of driving a merch for some people). Anyway, as years passed I moved up the ladder and had to pay $510 a year (and all I ever got was a magazine every 3-4 months). The confusing thing was that no employer (I changed 3 job) ever asked me about it. It was always show me your formal education, and experience with references. Needless to say I opted out.

PMI seems to be pretty much the same - just a few people decdided that they have the God given right to pass judgement on all of us. The most annoying thing is that many people are confusing PMP with and MBA.

Howere, I'm trying to break into a PM position and will have to (the pragmatic person I am) get those certificates. Makes life a lot easier and I can't educate all potential employers (and even worse employment agencies). The simple fact of life is that employers value it (for now) and i will have to get it.

cheers
vaha

Paul,
You may be stretching a bit. For the current PMP application:
each project requires a contact for verification. The 4,500 hours ARE documented and are verified.
The education hours must be documented for selected (only) providers.
While not a PMP, I manage PMP's. The concepts established in the PMP are used daily in our practice. Being a hiring manager it is highly unlikely the HR folks specified the PMP. Rather the hiring manager woudl like to have some way of screening applicants, beyonnd the resume.
The PMP is may be an entry level credential. In the same way a BA/BS degree is for engineers. But it is a necessary starting point.
Also Paul, I was a combat pilot in Vietnam. Having a pair wings pinned on my uniform did not make me a "pilot." Just a person who could get the aircraft back in one piece. After many hours playing the role of a pilot did those skills convert into enough experience to lead rather than follow.
The PMP - for that matter any "certification" - is similar. And as you should well know piloting is about proficiency. The recognition of peers works in the squadron ready room. There is no such thing in the PM world. Although INCOSE and Professional Engineering ranks make an attempt.
In the end Ian has taken the first step and done his first cross country. Now Ian needs to put that training to work and move up the experience ladder.

Whoa Josh, I am not "vehemently opposed" to the PMP. All I am trying to do is bring some realism to offset the "buzz" that PMI has created. PMI is a marketing machine. IF and WHEN someone can prove that people who have a PMP consistently deliver "better projects", the credential will have earned my respect.

But I have yet to see any credible empirical evidence supporting this, and to the contrary, several "early adopters" of the PMP, who have thousands of PMP's in their organizations, yet their projects continue to fail, have come to us as consultants asking what we recommend. And that recommendation is that the PMP is only a START. Step 1 of a journey.... Your "Black Belt" analogy....

Bottom line on this- all I ask is that instead of blindly admiring the Emperor's latest outfit, that the readership apply some rational thinking and put the PMP (and any other credential) in the proper perspective- recognizing that all the credentials in the world mean nothing if you are not competent at what you do.

BR,
Dr. PDG, Jakarta

Anyone reading this site for awhile probably already knows Dr. Paul and Bill are vehemently opposed to the PMP. We welcome all views here.

Dave Garret from Gantthead said something on a call last week that rang true for me. Someone earns a 1st degree black belt, and the teacher turns to the student and says "now you are ready to learn."

That's what the PMP is to me. A way to demonstrate you have a ground level of knowledge about PM. (Specifically PMI/PMBoK)

Some people have been kicking butt for a long time without a certification, and they look at those black belts and decide they don't need them. They certify a level long surpassed. Some just don't like the PMI way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Ian, I commend your decision to go back into some training so that you can earn that 1st degree black belt. I believe you'll look back and feel glad you did.

Hi Ian,
To put the real (as opposed to hyped or marketed) value of the PMP in perspective, how much credibility should we put in ANY credential that requires 4500 hours of undocumented experience; requires 35 hours of training, which can be satisfied by reading a book of sample questions or listening to a podcast; consists of a 200 question, multiple choice exam, for which the passing grade is ~62%? (A D minus in most schools)

Explained another way, would you get on the next commercial jet knowing the pilot had never taken off or landed a plane successfully? Or that she got her pilots license after studying a book of sample questions or listening to a podcast? Or that the only requirement to get a pilots license was to take a 200 question, multiple choice exam, and pass with a 62%?

Surely everyone can see and appreciate the absurdity?

Getting back to my pilot analogy, (I am a private pilot) to get a pilots license, one has to attend ground school, where one learns not only the vocabulary necessary to become a pilot, but learn the physics of flight and the mechanics of how a plane operates. Upon completion of ground school, one takes a multiple choice exam, which requires 70% score to pass. Upon passing, one receives a "learners permit", which authorizes one to get into a plane and actually fly it, under the supervision of a certified flight instructor. After this person is confident you are COMPETENT to fly a plane safely, (~40 hours of logged flight) you are allowed to SOLO. When you fly solo, you are not allowed to fly the plane with anyone else in it, much less earn money from flying. After logging sufficient number of hours of SUPERVISED flying, you take a COMPETENCY based test, where you actually fly the plane under the watchful eye of an FAA flight examiner. Upon establishing yourself as being COMPETENT in the eyes of an expert, then you become a licensed PRIVATE (amateur) pilot. This means you can fly yourself and your friends and family around, but not for money. Before you can actually fly as a COMMERCIAL (professional) pilot, you have to take much more advanced training, as well as log many more hours of flight time.

So for those who have your PMP, I say congratulations. You have passed the first hurdle to becoming a COMPETENT project manager- you can speak the language. Now go out and get some experience working under the watchful eyes of a master project manager. After a couple of years, manage a few small projects on your own, and build your reputation. Maybe take some specialized courses not on how to pass exams, but in the hard or soft skills necessary to become a professional. Maybe even get a degree in Project Management. (To be a pilot for any of the major airlines requires a 4 year degree)By this time, you should have earned the right to call yourself a professional project manager.

Bottom line on this- PMI has, IMPO, done an outstanding job marketing what can best be described as an entry level credential. If you really want to distinguish yourself, seek out competency based credentials, but more importantly, prove you are competent by CONSISTENTLY delivering projects on time, within budget, in substantial conformance to specifications while actually achieving the purpose for which they were undertaken in the first place.

BR,
Dr. PDG, Jakarta

Ian --

Funny ... you start out with "who values the PMP" and end up with "who fears the PMP." Those are not opposite ends of the same spectrum.

Do I value the PMP? No. It means you took the time to study and pass a test. It says nothing about your ability to manage a project. It doesn't even mean that you've ever managed a project much less done so successfully. I am aware of at least one recent college grad who passed the test and got his PMP despite having zero experience (he lied on his application).

Do I fear the PMP? No. What I fear is the people in HR who are making it a requirement because they THINK it means you are competent. What I fear is the people who have a PMP and claim to be certified project managers because they give the discipline a bad name when they fail.

In the best tradition of the recently departed Dubya, you say "bring it on." Are you ready to design and build a desalinization plant on the Saudi coast? Develop a new drug for malaria treatment? Develop a new corporate financial system? I doubt it.

Be proud of your PMP if you want to be. I'm happy for you. But something in excess of 95% of native English speakers who take a prep course pass it the first time, so be just as proud of your language skills as you are of your PM knowledge. And don't let it distort your worldview.

Duncan

William R. Duncan
Primary author of the original version of "A Guide to the Project Management Body of Knowledge"
Board Chair, PMCert, the certification body of asapm

Good post. My situation is similar to yours. However, the difference is that I have a PMP certification but no experience in an IT environment. My experience is in the marketing communication area, but all the open positions seem to be in IT.

So what does one do in that case? I'm wondering if there are any single college courses that would give someone the basic foundation of IT info in order to be qualified to manage an IT project. But which ones? Some jobs are looking for .net, some for SAP, PeopleSoft, ITIL. Where do you begin? I'm seeking suggestions. Thanks.

Michael C. Broadway, PMP

great post. You hit the nail on the head with this "Who who would fear the PMP certification?" Usually, the people who create job postings really have no idea what a PMP is. You've pretty much described the type of orgs that believe that it is important perfectly. I've found that having a PMP is becoming critical but again there are often members of project teams who feel hyper-inadequate working with a PMP.